Ancestors

Shraadh is the ritual related to ancestors. It is meant to pay homage to one’s deceased ancestors and make offerings to them. What does Gurbani say about it? KARMINDER SINGH explores the issue in the 11th of a 12-part series on Sikhi Concepts

9
1135
By Karminder Singh | Sikhi Concepts, Part 11 of 12 |

The first thing we need to do is to look at the pre-1468 beliefs pertaining to Ancestors. The Sanskrit word for it is Piter. Gurbani uses the same word when referring to this concept.

The claim in the pre-1468 beliefs is that our Piter reside in a location called Piter Lok. And that it is our duty to provide for their needs in Piter Lok.

The ritual that is related to ancestors is called Shraadh. The objective of Shraadh is to pay homage to one’s deceased ancestors and make offerings to them. The expectation is that the departed ancestors or Piter will protect the family and ensure their well being.
There are two Shradhs – one for male ancestors and the other for female. Then there is a communal Shraadh – where homage is paid to all ancestors of the community together.

The family performing the Shraadh invites clergy. These clergies are then fed and offerings made to them in the name of the ancestors. The clergy perform a fire ritual appeasing the gods who are said to transmit the food and offerings to the ancestors.

Food is also offered to the departed souls. The offerings are made to three generations of Pitars only. During the ritual of Shraadh, rice balls are fed to animals and birds – dogs and crows in particular.

Within the Sikh community, our clergy has propagated the principle of paying homage to our departed ancestors – parents and grandparents – in the form of Barsis.

Offerings of beddings, food and other items of daily use such as utensils are made either to our granthis or the gurdwara. The expectation is that the benefit of the deed will pass on to our departed ancestors or Piter.

A majority of our granthis, ragis and kirtanias – have defended such a ritual or practice by claiming that Gurbani supports it. They are often heard singing or quoting verses from Gurbani that use the term Piter to justify their claims.

There is no denying that Gurbani uses the word Piter within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS).

Let’s examine these verses to see if Gurbani is advocating the rituals relating to our Piters or Ancestor; or if the messages of Gurbani are something else all together.

VERSE 1: Bhagat Kabir (SGGS, 332)  

ਰਾਗ ਗਉੜੀ ਬੈਰਾਗਣਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥ ਜੀਵਤ ਪਿਤਰ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਊ ਮੂਏਂ ਸਿਰਾਧ ਕਰਾਹੀ ॥ ਪਿਤਰ ਭੀ ਬਪੁਰੇ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਕਊਆ ਕੂਕਰ ਖਾਹੀ॥

Rag Gauri Bairagan Kabeer Ji. Jeevat Pitar Na Maney Kou, Muey Shradh Krahee. Pitar Bhe Bapuray Kaho Kion Pavey, Kaoa Kookar Khaee. 

The meaning of the verse is “The ancestors were not recognized when they were alive.  Once dead, we want to send them all sorts of goods through the ritual of Shraad. What an irony.”

And making offerings of food upon their demise in Ancestor worship only benefits the dogs and crows. And that nothing reaches anywhere other than that.

The message is clear. These set of verses is a critique of the ritual pertaining to Piter. Kabir is saying – Ancestors must be respected and treated well when they are alive. Not after their demise.

Then in the Rahao or Title verse of the same shabd, Bhagat Kabir has this verse.

VERSE 2: Bhagat Kabir (SGGS, 332)  

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਜਗੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਭੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Mo Ko Kusal Btavho Koyi. Kusal Kusal Kartay Jug Binsey. Kusal Bhi Kaisay Hoyi. Rahao.

Kabir is saying: Someone tell me what well-being comes of this ritual. The whole world of ancestor worship claims the ancestor or Piter will ensure our well-being and happiness but how could one get such from a ritual?

The message is clear again. Nothing can come our way from this ritual because deceased ancestors are not in a position to offer us anything.

VERSE 3: Guru Nanak (SGGS, 472)  

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ 1 ॥ ਜੇ ਮੋਹਾਕਾ ਘਰੁ ਮੁਹੈ ਘਰੁ ਮੁਹਿ ਪਿਤਰੀ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਅਗੈ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਿਞਾਣੀਐ ਪਿਤਰੀ ਚੋਰ ਕਰੇਇ ॥ ਵਢੀਅਹਿ ਹਥ ਦਲਾਲ ਕੇ ਮੁਸਫੀ ਏਹ ਕਰੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗੈ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿ ਖਟੇ ਘਾਲੇ ਦੇਇ ॥ 1 ॥

Solak M1. Jay Mohaka Ghar Muhey Ghar Muhe Pitri Dey. Ageiy Vast Sinyaneay Pitri(n) Chor Krey. Vadheah Hath Dlal Kay Musfi Eh Krey. Nanak Ageiy So Miley Jay Khattey Ghaley Dey.

Meaning:  If A Thief Raids a Home, and Makes an Offering of His Loot to His Deceased Ancestors. In the Ancestor world, or Piterlok, (as claimed by the clergy), The Donated Items Get Recognized; The Ancestors Are Thus Made Thieves Because They are in Possession of Looted Items. The Middleman Agent Clergy Will Have His Hands Chopped Off; This Is the Justice Meted Out to Thieves. Nanak What I Obtain as My Spiritual Outcome Is What I Earn and Accumulate with My Own Diligence.

Guru Nanak’s argument makes the following three things clear for the Sikh: First, any ritual relating to ancestors is worthless. There is nothing we can do for them and there is nothing they can do for us.

Second, the entire practice of sending things to ancestors is illogical and hence rejected.

And third, the role of the middleman clergy is an exercise of trickery. He makes a living out of the entire process – asking for things that he himself needs under the pretext of sending them to the ancestors of this devotees. To ensure his livelihood is secure, he propagates this concocted narrative of Piter.

The conclusion makes an additional contribution to our spirituality. By using words such as ਖਟੇ ਘਾਲੇ meaning – earning in diligence – Guru Nanak is advocating a spirituality of the Here and Now. Within such a context, the word ਅਗੈ Ageiy is re-defined from a non-existant clergy invented location in the clergy concocted after world – to our spiritual progress, goal and destination in the Here and Now.

It’s not too difficult to figure out that even if the word Piter appears in the verses in Gurbani, the message is NOT to suggest that it is an accepted practice or that it is part of Sikhi. The messages within these verses are a critique of the ritual for us Sikhs.

The messages are to tell us to stay clear from rituals. And to stay clear from clergy who advocate them for their own benefit.

But the messages of Gurbani have not stopped our clergy – our granthis, ragis, kirtanias, etc from arguing otherwise.

To support their stand, our clergy rely on a verse of Guru Arjun that contains the word Piter and is found on page 496 of the SGGS. The verse is as follows.

VERSE 4: Guru Arjan (SGGS, 496)  

ਗੂਜਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ 5 ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਨਾਸਹਿ ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ ॥

Jis Simrat Sabh Kilvekh Nasey, Pitree Hoey Udharo.

The first part of the verse ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਨਾਸਹਿ translates as “The Simran or Remembrance of Whom eliminates all spiritual obstacles.”

Our clergy translate ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ as “and Ensures Your ancestors WILL BE saved.”

The claim by or clergy is that this verse is clear and unequivocal support for the concept of Ancestors or Piter in Gurbani. Our clergy tell us that what we do WILL have an effect on the well-being of our Ancestors. We need to do Simran ON THE BEHALF of our deceased Ancestors to save them.

The clergy’s message to us Sikhs is this: Guru Arjun is saying clearly – Do Simran, this simran will save you and WILL save your ancestors, too, ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ.

Well, there are three things that are wrong with this translation of our clergy. The first is that it contradicts the basic principles of Gurbani, Gurmat and Sikhi.

This verse of Guru Nanak on page 474 of the SGGS lays out this basic principle.

VERSE 5: Guru Nanak (SGGS, 474)

ਆਪਣ ਹਥੀ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਕਾਜੁ ਸਵਾਰੀਐ ॥

Aapan Hathee Aapna Apey Hee Kaal Swareay.

Meaning: Spiritual outcomes are the result of our own actions done on our own by ourselves.

We are also familiar with this verse of Guru Nanak.

VERSE 7: Guru Nanak (SGGS, 4) 

ਆਪੇ ਬੀਜਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਖਾਹੁ ॥

Meaning: The Self Reaps What the Self Sows

This verse of Guru Arjun on page 134 of the SGGS corroborates.

VERSE 8: Guru Arjan (SGGS, 134)

ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਲੁਣੈ ਕਰਮਾ ਸੰਦੜਾ ਖੇਤੁ ॥

Jeha Beejay So Luney Karma Sandra Kheyt.

Meaning: Spirituality is a field where seeds of actions are sowed (planted) and outcomes (results) reaped.

Put together the principle of Gurmat that comes out is simple. Sikhi is a spirituality of the Self, for the self, by the self. There is no place for Spirituality on behalf of others in Sikhi. Spirituality on behalf of our ancestors therefore cannot be the meaning of ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ.

Secondly, the word ਹੋਇ in the verse ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ is in the past tense. So the clergy translation of ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ as Your ancestors WILL BE saved is wrong because it has made a verse in the past tense appear to be in the future tense.

Thirdly, we know that this is a verse of Guru Arjun ji. Since Gurbani is written in the first person, this verse therefore applies to Guru ji in the first person. If the clergy translation is accepted then we need to accept that the Guru is telling us “The Remembrance of Whom Ensures My ancestors WILL BE saved.”

So this is where the third problem comes in. Do the ancestors of Guru Arjun need saving? His father was Guru Ramdas. He passed on before Arjun became Guru, which means this verse is being composed after the passing of his father. So are we to believe that Guru Arjun the son had to do Simran so that his deceased father Guru Ramsas could be saved?

So putting these three points together the clergy translation of ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ as ‘our simran ensures our ancestors WILL BE saved’ is not correct. This sort of translation goes against the basic principle of spirituality of the Self. Its grammar is wrong, and the translation is ridiculously wrong when applied to Guru Arjun in the first person.

So the correct translation of the verse is as follows: The remembrance of Whom eliminates all spiritual obstacles; just like it DID for our ancestors (Gurus and Sikhs before us).

ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ means just like how the remembrance saved our ancestors in the here and now.

The next verse of this same couplet makes it clear:

VERSE 9: Guru Arjan (SGGS, 496)  

ਸੋ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੁਮੑ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਜਾਪਹੁ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰੋ ॥ 1 ॥

So Har Har Tum Sad Hi Japho Ja Ka Unt Na Paro.

Meaning: Realize that particular Unfathomable omnipresent Creator whose realization saved our ancestors and whose realization will save you and me.

It is clear therefore that in this shabad of Guru Arjun, the use of the phrase ਪਿਤਰੀ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੋ is not in any way an endorsement of the ritual of Shraadh. It is in no way an endorsement of the notion that our deceased ancestors are in need of our intervention. It is in no way an advocacy of the pre-1468 or pre-Guru Nanak era beliefs about praying to and for our deceased ancestors.

As said above, the word Piter, Pitra(n) and Pitri(n) appears within the SGGS. In ALL of these instances, all and any ritual relating or pertaining to deceased ancestors is critiqued by the composers of the verses.

The one and only message of Gurbani relating to our Ancestors is embedded within the verse of Bhagat Kabir.

VERSE 10: Bhagat Kabir (SGGS, 332)

ਰਾਗ ਗਉੜੀ ਬੈਰਾਗਣਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥ ਜੀਵਤ ਪਿਤਰ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਊ ਮੂਏਂ ਸਿਰਾਧ ਕਰਾਹੀ ॥

Rag Gauri Bairagan Kabeer Ji. Jeevat Pittar Na Maney Kou Mueey Shradh Krahee. Pittar Bhe Bapuray Kaho Kion Pavey Kaooa Kookar Khaee.

Meaning: The ancestors were not recognized when they were alive.  Once dead, we want to send them all sorts of goods through the ritual of Shraad. What an irony. What hypocrisy.

The message is to ELIMINATE the irony. The message is to REJECT the hypocrisy.  And the way to do that is to respect, honor, love and venerate our elders in our lives.

In essence then, what Gurbani has done is to Liberate us from the entire pre 1468 Canvas.  To free us from the debilitating and crippling entanglement, fear and anxiety of the clergy concocted concepts of the 4,000 year old canvas.

When you stop wanting to worship your ancestors after their death, you start respecting them when they are alive, you start to love them in the present, and you start to honor them in the Here and Now.

When you stop chasing the spirituality of life after death, you start living the spirituality of here and now, and you allow the spirituality of Hukm to live within you.

When you discard the Gurbani discarded narratives of the 4,000 years old canvas, you start living the truths of Gurbani.

When you STOP chasing the wrong things, you give the right things a chance to catch you.

 

 

SIKHI CONCEPTS SERIES BY DR KARMINDER SINGH DHILLON:  COMPLETE LINKS TO VIDEOS & LECTURE NOTES

MASTER LINK: Complete links to videos and lecture notes

PART 1: GURU NANAK’S CANVAS: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 2: DEATH: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 3: AFTER LIFE: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 4: CHAURASI LAKH (8.4 MILLION): Video | Lecture Notes

PART 5: REINCARNATION: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 6: HEAVEN & HELL: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 7: SALVATION (MUKTI): Video | Lecture Notes

PART 8: COURT OF JUDGEMENT (DARGAH): Video | Lecture Notes

PART 9: DHRM RAJ: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 10: JUM DOOT & CHITR GUPT: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 11: ANCESTORS: Video | Lecture Notes

PART 12: APPLYING THE CANVAS: Video | Lecture Notes

 

Sikh thinker, writer and parcharak Karminder Singh Dhillon, PhD (Boston), is a retired Malaysian civil servant. He is the joint-editor of The Sikh Bulletin and author of The Hijacking of Sikhi. He can be contacted at dhillon99@gmail.com. 

 

RELATED STORY:

Hijacking Sikhi (Asia Samachar, 19 Dec 2020)

Karminder talks about what shaped his thinking, and his latest books on Sikhi (Asia Samachar, 20 Nov 2020)

 

ASIA SAMACHAR is an online newspaper for Sikhs / Punjabis in Southeast Asia and beyond. Facebook | WhatsApp +6017-335-1399 | Email: editor@asiasamachar.com | Twitter | Instagram | Obituary announcements, click here |

9 COMMENTS

  1. You have got it all wrong – again – Rawel Singh. And you keep going around in those same circles with nothing new to add.
    It is not about being a “good communicator” or being “forceful.” Please stop trying to obscure the matter.
    Dr Karminder Singh comes across as solid, clear, precise and effective because Gurbani itself is solid, clear and precise; and he interprets its messages in an authentic way. He tells us that Gurbani rubbishes the entirety of the clergy-concocted stuff that is the 4-thousand-year old canvas. Again and again, our Bhagats and our Gurus say in the clearest terms – we reject heaven and hell, we have ransacked the office of Dhram Raj, 8.4 mil is a concoction etc.
    You – Rawel Singh – come across as confused and muddled because you are trying desperately to hold on to the 4-thousand-year old canvas – but under some cooked up conditions. You are saying: Drhm Raj, Reincarnation, Jum, Chiter Gupt etc actually exist and actually function but only for those who “disobey the Hukm.”
    The Clergy who concocted Drhm Raj, Jum, Chiter Gupt etc said they work and function for those who “commit sins, do bad etc.” They of course defined what was “sin” and “bad.” You are saying these entities work for those who “disobey the Hukm.” So what you have done, Rawel Singh is to have merely defined “committing sin and doing bad” in your own confused way.
    What is particularly disturbing being that you are saying Guru Nanak (and Gurbani) is the one who said “Drhm Raj, Reincarnation, Jum, Chiter Gupt etc actually exist and actually function but only for those who “disobey the Hukm.” You are actually lowering the esteem of Guru Nanak in saying that all he did was to “add a condition or two” and that the Guru retained the 4-thousand-year old canvas.
    Unlearning is difficult. It is painful. But this is what you need Rawel Singh. Once you have done that you will realize that Guru Nanak was no ‘cut and paste” Guru. He was no “gloss over” or “touch up” Guru – adding or modifying conditions to keep clergy concocted tales in place. He was a revolutionary who had no problem throwing out all that was fit to be thrown out.
    As Dr Karminder Singh has said repeatedly in all his 12 videos – our Gurus threw out the 4-thousand-year old canvas to liberate us Sikhs from the crippling and debilitating fear and to free us Sikhs from the control which the clergy wanted to exert on us in the name of religion.

  2. I am sorry this discussion has gone off-track. Karminder Singh put across his views forcefully, I opposed some of them forcefully and he reacted still more forcefully. So, I acknowledge my contribution to this conflict situation. Let us get back on track.

    After reading his “Benaras Conspiracies” it is clear Karminder Singh’s agenda is to counter efforts to Hinduise Sikhi. I whole-heartedly support this effort. He has great communication skills and these are very effective in conveying the desired message.

    However, the method adopted by him cannot work. Let me explain. Gurbani tackles the Hindu beliefs in gods and goddesses and the accompanied worship. Gurbani also deals symbolization, while lacking practice of beliefs. Gurbani similarly tackles the Muslim beliefs of symbolization as against practice. Kindly read the treatment of Hindu and Muslim beliefs and practices by the fifth Guru at

    http://www.sadhsangat.com/sggs-pp-1082-1084-maroo-m-5-solahey-11-12/.

    This is from my website http://www.sadhsangat.com/

    Gurbani approach to spirituality is practical. For example, Japji Paurri 1 says that rituals do not work in finding God, but obeying Hukam does, thus.

    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥ —
    The mind – where God dwells – cannot be cleansed even if the body is washed lakhs of times. The mind does not become quiet by sitting in meditation.

    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
    Question: Then how one becomes truthful and the wall of falsehood – ego between God and the soul – is broken.
    Answer: It is by complying with Hukam/Divine commands, which are written with the soul.

    Belief in powers of gods and goddesses is based on them having powers like God and ability to protect. Secondly, they are worshipped for somethings they do as per stories. Here is comparison between the Creator, and Rama of the Ramayana.

    ਪਉਣੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਰੀ ਸਭ ਧਰਤੀ ਜਲ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਦਹਸਿਰਿ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਕਟਾਇਆ ਰਾਵਣੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥

    The Creator created the universe with the earth, air, water and fire/energy.
    Ravana blinded – by his perceived powers – had his head chopped of by Rama. How does Rama become as great as the Creator for this?

    Now about the terms like Dharam Raaey, addressed by Karminder Singh. The Hindus believe all these as real entities and worship them. The belief is that everyone is subject to them. Gurbani says they are concepts, which apply only to those who do not obey Hukam. They are applicable to the soul and not the physical body. This may be seen in context of Japji Paurri 1 translated above. This should clarify the doubt whether these Hindu beliefs and not applicable in Sikhi. Obedience of Hukam does not depend on religion. No one is beyond the domain of cosmic laws.

    Let us take the items one by one.

    1. Reincarnation. The Hindus and Buddhists believe it applies to everyone. However, again in context of Japji Paurri 1, one who obeys Hukam, unites with God, the others take births and die repeatedly. The fifth Guru says.
    ਜਮਿ ਜਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਮਰੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ॥ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਸਜਾਇ ਪਇਆ ਦੇਸਿ ਲੰਮੈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਤਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ਅੰਧਾ ਤਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਸਹੈ ਪਰਾਣੀਆ ॥੫॥
    The soul keeps taking births, dying and again taking births. It stays in this world for long. The person, who does not acknowledge/obey the Creator, goes through this suffering. M: 5, p 1020.

    2. Dharam Rai/Raj. The principle is: ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਬਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਆਤਮਾ ਓਹੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਰਕਾਰ ॥ M: 3, p 38. Dharam Rai has orders to consider cases based on eternal laws/Hukam. Your jurisdiction is on the evil souls which have other ideas, i.e. who do not obey Hukam.

    Again, ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ M: 4, p 555.
    Dharam Rai has been created by the Almighty, he does not go near the obedient servant of God.
    3. Chitr Gupt literally means hidden writer. This means everyone’s deeds are noted.
    ਦੇਇ ਕਿਵਾੜ ਅਨਿਕ ਪੜਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਫਾਕੈ ॥ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਜਬ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਤਬ ਕਉਣੁ ਪੜਦਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਢਾਕੈ ॥੩॥ A man indulges with another’s wife behind closed door. But o man, when Chitr Gupt asks for accounts of deeds who will cover your deeds. M: 5, p 616.

    4. Jamm. This is the messenger of divine justice. The dictionaries translate it as the messenger of death.
    ਸਤਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਮੁਹ ਫੇਰਹਿ ਮਥੇ ਤਿਨ ਕਾਲੇ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਦੁਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਨਿਤ ਜੋਹੇ ਜਮ ਜਾਲੇ ॥ Those who turn their faces away from, i.e. do not follow the guru, their foreheads are black – their faults are noted. They remain in web of the Jam/Divine justice, and are watched.

    Further, ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਪਤ ਕਾ ਕਾਗਦੁ ਫਾਰਿਆ ਜਮਦੂਤਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਚਲੀ ॥ M: 5, p 79.
    When the account written by Chitr Gupt is torn, i.e. nothing negative is found, then the Jamdoot, agent of Divine justice has no jurisdiction.

    Divine justice is applicable to all. But, the metaphoric entities we are discussing are those who hold the souls to account. This is concept or natural justice. They have jurisdiction only on those who do not obey Divine commands

  3. Rawel Singh, you are upset about my use of the word “nonsensical”. Let me point out just two of the many nonsensical statements your just wrote in response to my views. (i) Karminder Singh is using you to defend him. You obviously waited to be briefed by him (ii) Since you are ignorant about Gurbani, I will not respond to you anymore.

    Your delusional mind obviously leads you to make nonsensical statement (i) above. It is time you tell as to who exactly is using you to peddle your brahmanical stuff amongst us Sikhs? Your inability to respond sensibly and logically to my queries leads you to declare others (including me) as being “ignorant about gurbani.” Oh my, the stink of your ego.

    Read my post again and answer my questions pertaining to how your two faced assertions make sense – on the one hand you say “dhrm raj and jum doot are metaphorical” and then you say “Drhm Rai and Jum Doot “represent the divine justice system.” Metaphors represent the divine justice system? Really?

  4. Kulwant Kaur Ji, I had asked Karminder Singh to respond to my post but I suppose he has no feet to stand on and is using you. It is sad to see you using words like “Nonsensical” in a discussion on Gurmat. You, like Karminder Singh, obviously have no respect or commitment to Gurbani. I am surprised that whereas Karminder Singh remains busy in undermining Sikh beliefs, he is using you to defend him. This is clear from the fact that that you have responded to my post of 26 March 2021 after a long tome, on 10 Apr 2021. You obviously waited to be briefed by him.

    Karminder Singh’s understanding is based on what he learnt as PhD candidate in Boston. No wonder he is trying to negate the concept of “hereafter” which finds place at least once in more than 90 % pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. His articles and videos are in line with Christian thought which has no concept of the hereafter. Like Christians, Karminder Singh ignores the soul and the hereafter.

    Coming to specific points which you have misrepresented. You have referred to my statement “He accepts the translation of these lines by the clergy and condemns it. That means he has no understanding of it himself, because he does not interpret it differently”. Has Karminder Singh given his translation of the line ? No. He only condemns what others say. He only gave meaning of the second part because the first part says “Nanak agai so milai”, i.e. it represents the hereafter. That is all he can do because he does not understand Gurbani.

    I quoted that the Shabad which contains Pitri hoey udhaaro also has Poota Maata ki Aasees. Do you deny this also?

    About the metaphors. Karminder Singh and you are only looking for physical existence. No, Dharam Rai and and Jam are concepts representing the Divine justice system. That is clear from the quote I gave “Dharam rai no hukam hai bah sachaa dharam beechaar”. Do you think God has physical existence?

    Since you are ignorant about Gurbani, I will not respond to you any more. Karminder Singh should come up and reply to my post if he has the commitment to what he says.

  5. Another great video by Dr Karminder Singh. Gurbani in presented in simple, clear and direct language. Am eagerly awaiting the next video in this series.

    Rawel Singh, your criticisms are frankly nonsensical. You say of Dr Karminder “He accepts the translation of these lines by the clergy and condemns it.” Then you say “That means he has no understanding of it himself, because he does not interpret it differently.” Silly, isn’t it? How can one accept something and still condemn it.? The truth is Dr Karminder has condemned the clergy version and provided his version. You may want to stop twisting things to suit your muddled up thoughts.

    Your translations show you are confused. You translate Nanak agai so milai jey khattey ghaaley dey as “one gets in the hereafter what one earns by hard work and shares with others.” But then you have said in earlier posts that “dhrm raj, jum doot, hereafter are all metaphorical.” So where is this metaphorical “hereafter” that “one gets into?”

    You say of Dr Karminder “he only quotes half of the line in this Slok “Nanak agai so milai jey khattey ghaaley dey”. I watched the video and Dr Karminder quotes the full verse, explains the clergy provided meaning of the second half of the verse, and then provides the tatt gurmat meaning of the second half of the line.

    Rawel Singh, I don’t suppose you will give up your effort of trying to fit the round pegs of Gurbani into the square holes of Snatan thought. I must add that your agenda is becoming clearer by the day.

  6. Dr Karminder Singh has come out with another video and article, this time about the ancestors. He rightly points out the futility of Shradh or feasts in memory of ਪਿਤਰ or ancestors. However he displays vey narrow vision and thinks that every referencJie to the the word ਪਿਤਰ in Gurbani is negative. For example he negatively comments on the Shabad “Jis simrat sabh kilvikh naasey pitri hoey udhaaro” page 496. He accepts the translation of these lines by the clergy and condemns it. That means he has no understanding of it himself, because he does not interpret it differently. The concept that we can do no good to our ancestors by charity is right. But he should realize that since Gurbani mentions Pitar a number of times, he should make an attempt to understand it. He is probably not aware that the lines “Pootaa mata ka aasees. Nimakh na bisrau tum ko har har sadaa bhajahu jagdees” is part of this Shabad in the form of the guru’s teaching. Karminder Singh rejects the Shabad because of its meaning given by others, without investigating. I agree the meaning of “Pitri hoey udhaaro” is not “to save the ancestors”. It means to bring good name to the lineage by good conduct. This is indicated by the first line of Shabad itself “Jis simrat sabh kilvikh naasey pitri hoey udhaaro” The Almighty, by whose remembrance (kilvikh) wrongdoings leave and and (pitri) ancestors are (udhaaro) saved from bad reputation – by the conduct of their descendant. The rest of the Shabad is motivation to live by Hukam or Divine commands. This interpretation of saving reputation by good conduct is endorsed in Gurbani by

    “ਸੰਤਾ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਜਮ ਕੈ ਪੰਥਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ ॥ ਤੋਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੁਲਹਿ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਗਾਲਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
    Sanṯā sangaṯ pā▫ī▫ai. Jiṯ jam kai panth na jā▫ī▫ai. Ŧosā har kā nām lai ṯere kulėh na lāgai gāl jī▫o. ||1||

    We should (paaeeai = find) join (sangat-i) company of (santaa = saints) seekers of the Almighty – and learn to obey Divine commands; by (jit-u) which we shall not (jaaeeai) go (panth-i) on path of, i.e. be under control (kai) of (jam) Divine justice.
    O human being (lai) take Naam/commands of (har-i) the Almighty as (tosaa = expense on journey) the wherewithal for life, i.e. live the right way with dignity, then (gaal-i = swear) bad name will not (laagai) come to (terey) your (kulah-i) lineage/forefathers. 1.

    Karminder Singh rightly quoted the Slok “Jey mohaaka ghar mohi —” If a thief robs a house and gives in charity in the name of ancestor they would be called thieves. Since he has phobia of hereafter, he only quotes half of the line in this Slok “Nanak agai so milai jey khattey ghaaley dey” one gets in the hereafter what one earns by hard work and shares with others. He only mentions “Khattey ghaaley dey”. He draws three lessons from this Slok but this one of earning honestly is not one of them.

    Dr Karminder Singh jI, please give up your ego and try to understand Gurbani as a humble Sikh. And then give sermons.

LEAVE A REPLY