Q&A with Dr Karminder Singh on Dasam Granth issue

 | Opinion | Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia | 22 April 2016 | Asia Samachar |
Dr Karminder Singh at a lecture series on Vaisakhi at Gurdwara Sahib Petaling Jaya in April 2016 - PHOTO / ASIA SAMACHAR
Dr Karminder Singh at a lecture series on Vaisakhi at Gurdwara Sahib Petaling Jaya in April 2016 – PHOTO / ASIA SAMACHAR

A mini storm is brewing within the Sikh community in Malaysia with a local Sikh organisation going ahead with a planned kirtan and katha of Dasam Granth in Kuala Lumpur today in the face of objections from some quarters of the community, including the Malaysian Gurdwaras Council (MGC).

Asia Samachar speaks to Dr Karminder Singh, a Malaysian Sikh who has been active in Sikh activities for more than three decades, on the issue.

“On matters concerning Dasam Granth, we should allow the scholars, researchers to do their work and for our religious institutions of authority, the Akaal Takhat especially, to give us final direction. Till then, we should avoid taking any steps that will break the unity of our Sanggat, cause divisions, conflict and, God forbid, violence,” he says in the interview.

He was asked to comment on the the three-day Akaal Ustat Semagam programme organised by the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Academy (SGGS Academy) at Gurdwara Sahib Titiwangsa in Kuala Lumpur, beginning today.

On 7 April, MGC had dispatched a letter to the gurdwara to voice its concerns that a the programme has the ‘potential of splitting the Sanggat and causing disunity’.

SEE ALSO: MGC fears Akaal Ustat Semagam can split Sanggat, cause disunity


At the time of writing, SGGS Academy and the Titiwangsa gurdwara management committee (GMC) president Paviter Singh had yet to respond to queries from Asia Samachar on the matter.

Dr Karminder Singh, who describes himself as independent Sikh unaffiliated to any Sikh organisation or gurdwara, is a member of the Dhram Parchar Committee of MGC in an advisory capacity. He also works with the Coalition of Malaysian Sikhs Organisation (CMSO) as their guest parcharak on Gurbani matters.




What is your take on the MGC letter to the Gurdwara Sahib Titiwangsa on the Akaal Ustat Semagam matter?

I am in support of the letter. The MGC is calling on Titiwangsa Gurdwara commiitee to abide by the stipulations of the Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM) with regards to what is allowed for kirten and katha in a gurdwara programme.

It is also calling on the committee to be aware of the dangers of dis-regardding the SRM. The constitution of the MGC states that member gurdwaras will abide by the SRM. Titiwangsa Gurdwara is a member of MGC.

Further, Malaysian gurdwaras have by and large adhered to the SRM for as long as they have existed. The SRM ensures panthik unity and peace – two things that Malaysian gurdwaras have enjoyed all along. Why do we want to rock the boat now?

What is wrong with discussing Akaal Ustat?

The issue is not about discussing. Scholars and researchers on both sides of the divide (for and against Akall Ustat) do it all the time.

This semagam at Titiwangsa aims to sing this composition in kirtan form and to do its katha (discourse) in the diwan in the presence of the Sanggat and in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is not right.

This composition is not in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. It is not sanctioned as Kirtan and Katha in the sangat in the diwan. The SRM is clear – Kirtan and Katha only from SGGS, Bhai Gurdas jji and Bhai Nand Lal Ji.

So the issue is over the contravention of SRM and established maryada of Kirtan and Katha in the sangat. The issue is over an attempt to “smuggle” this controversial composition into the maryada of Kirtan and Katha in the Gurdwara under the disguise of “discussing” it.

How do you view the position of Dasam Granth in the Sikh Panth today?

It stands as the single most controversial issue in the Sikh Panth today. It is a highly emotional issue for many Sikhs on both side of the divide. The potential of this issue to divide previously united sangats, cause conflict and even violence is evident if one does a search on Youtube for instance.

In gurdwaras overseas, Sanggats are beginning to take matters into their own hands. There is video evidence of groups of anti Dasam Granth Sikhs stopping Ragis from singing compositions from Dasam Granth in the Sangat. There is similar evidence of groups stopping parcharaks who have anti Dasam Granth stands from doing their parchaar.

Police have been called into gurdwaras over such ugly incidents. Gurdwras have been ordered closed by the authorities over the breach of peace. This is disgraceful.

We don’t want such to happen in our Malaysian gurdwaras. The potential down the line is certainly there.

How do we move forward on this issue?

1. The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Academy has done a commendable job in teaching and promoting the SGGS to our Sanggat. They should carry on their good work and earn even higher regard from our Sanggat.

2. All Malaysian gurdwaras and Sikhs in their individual capacity should stick to the SRM on matters of Kirtan, Katha and the Nitnem Banees.

3. On matters concerning Dasam Granth, we should allow the scholars, researchers to do their work and for our religious institutions of authority, the Akaal Takhat especially, to give us final direction. Till then, we should avoid taking any steps that will break the unity of our Sanggat, cause divisions, conflict and, God forbid, violence.

4. In the Titiwangsa case, there may be individuals or groups with agendas on their own. I call upon them to act responsibly.

5. I call upon the Gurdwara committee to stand up and do what is right. If the committee is somehow unable to do it, the Sanggat should take a stand and call their committee members to take charge. Please do not allow your gurdwara to gain a reputation for being the gurdwara where the conflict of it all started. You will have to live with that reputation for a long time.

6. It would be best for the Academy, MGC and Gurdwara Titiwangsa to discuss this matter while keeping the interests of the Malaysian Sanggat as a whole in mind.


MGC fears Akaal Ustat Semagam can split Sanggat, cause disunity (Asia Samachar, 21 April 2016)

You want to respect Guru, make shabad accessible (Asia Samachar, 14 Jan 2016)

Are our Gurdwaras Dysfunctional? The Assessment. (Asia Samachar, 9 Jan 2015)


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  1. Gurfateh all.
    One of my students asked me a loaded question in respect of this so called “new evidence” which is a coat of body armour with some “bani” on it and this is supposed to prove conclusively that the Guru wrote it because the body armour is his. (Logically this logic falls in the same category my Christian Teacher used to use on me…How do we know the Bible is the Word of God ? Answer..Because Jesus tells us so. How do we know Jesus is the Son of God ? Answer: Because the Bible tells us so. period. No wonder I failed to fall for that one ).
    Well anyway..the loaded question is..IF the GURU can walk around with “sacred bani” written all over his armour…why cant we have Gurbani Tatoos on our bodies ? Why are khanda tatooes, etc frowned upon ??
    I suppose our kids are just as immune to such devious logic and dont fall so easily to such so called irrefutable evidence…bani is sacred as its written on armour..and since its his bani it must be his armour…and since its his armour it has to be his bani…????? NO THANK YOU.
    More importantly no such banis have been found on any armour swords of other GURUS..who were also warriors and fought wars. Maybe it wasnt fashionable back then..or it was righhtly beleived that the Right Place for real Dhur Ki Bani Gurbani was on paper in ink bound in AAD GRANTHSGGS FORM ONLY.

  2. Well said Giani Ji.I wondered why you were quiet on this malicious actions by insider tramps and saboteurs.Having read this book 197 times over ten years,I am of the view this is planted to defame the Guru ji; or deliberately created to divide the Sikhs and bring them back into brahman fold, and be known as Kesadhari Brahmans.There is NO two ways about this nonsensical porno laden book.

    Any one with a grain of salt off his mother and who has read the entire SIKH history deeply knows,any little writing of the Guru Gobind Singh was adulterated with poisonous and self contradictory stories and stories that are so clearly present in the three Vedic brahman puranas-Markandiye,Vismad and Sri pad Puran word for word.

    Almost all of Gurus writings were lost in the evacuation crossing of River Sirsa, and the burning down of Anandpur Fort by Moghuls.

    I believe Bhai Mani Singh connection to “collecting writings of Guru Giobind is concotted and added to gain some credibility..by these “nice fellows”.If indeed he was collecting between 1708 and 1738-this book would have been known to Sikhs, and he too would have mentioned it in his notes.Sikhs would have not argued about it.But the first time it is mentioned vaguely as bachitter natak in Banaswalinama by Chibber 80 years later——-BANSAVALINAMA DASAN PATSHAHIAN KA is a poeticized account of the lives of the Gurus by Kesar Singh Chhibbar. The term bansavalinama means a genealogy. Another term used in the text is “kursinama” which is Persian for “genealogy.” But, strictly speaking, this work is not a genealogical table. It is a rapid account, in rather incipient Punjabi verse, of the ten Gurus and of Banda Singh Bahadur and some other Sikhs. Description of historical events and mythological elements occasionally overlap in this work. Its peculiar feature is the wealth of chronological detail it contains about the lives of the Gurus and the members of their families. But the reliability of the dates recorded by the author is not established.

    The author, Kesar Singh Chhibbar, came of a family who had served the Gurus as diwans or ministers. His grandfather, Dharam Chand, was in charge of the treasury of Guru Gobind Singh. Dharam Chand’s father, Dargah Mall, had been diwan to Guru Tegh Bahadur, the Ninth Guru, and his two predecessors. Dharam Chand’s son, Gurbakhsh Singh, served Guru Gobind Singh. Kesar Singh was Gurbakhsh Singh’s son. Too young at the time of Guru Gobind Singh’s passing away, he did have the privilege of the company of some eminent Sikhs of his day, notably scholar and martyr Bhai Mani Singh. For many years he lived at Amritsar and also attended upon Mata Sundari, widow of Guru Gobind Singh, in Delhi. As he records himself, he wrote the Bansavalinama in a dharamsala in Jammu and completed it in 1826 Bk/AD 1769. The book, comprising 2,564 stanzas, is divided into fourteen chapters

    I am often amused by the so called “knowledge” of these little minions, like Manohar sinh, and another Jaz pal-the mouth pieces of the this nefarious SGGS academy-they never come up with established FACTS, nor many others I have come across.

    It has come to light this foolish but “nice fellows” are also doing “katha” on the suraj parkash-a book that has no religiousity value, but merely written by Santokh Singh , years later, in 1843, largely based on imaginary poetry, and heresay from here and there.A book that is simply one persons view of history that he has heard, or imagined up.This book has been thrown out of Gurduaras many years back.So what is THEIR agenda, poisoning the minds of young children?It is a mere history book, written largely on dubious oral history passed down.

    This is the same Kavi Santokh Singh based on whose 4 lines of imaginery description in poetry from the dubious bachiter natak,,they found the hemkunt , first in Rawalsar Hills , near Amritsar, then 6 months later another found it 1100 kilometres away where currently it is based…although in recent times, another is said to be emerging in the Narbada Hills, in South india about 2000 kilometres to the south. The other days, I saw one in the Southern Bavarian mountains that fits the descriptions of hemkunt squarely!I wonder if they will start trekking to the German one and abandon the Indian.And like this absurdity, they will then debate in 100 years time, that The German Hemkunt is the genuine one !Just how many hemkunts would we have ?

    The question is did Guru Gobind Singh really write this porno storied book?No.Did the 10th Master have so much free time that he chose to write silly stories of sex arousal, instead of the stories of His near Miraclous Khalsa , and Sikhs or the previous One jot nine Gurus?

    But in 1698, waiting to produce the Khalsa, he was happily sitting in his free time regurgitating the :-

    MARKANDIYE puran,chandi chriters 1,chandi charitra 11, Chandi di vaar [chandi is demon destroying form of the hindu goddess Shakti];Chaudis Avtaar, [24 incarnations of Vishnu]Brahm Avtaar [incartnation of brahma, Ruder Avtaar[reincarnation of SHIV-sex symbol]and the unbelievable CHARITROPKHAYAN sexual adventures-which some of these fools say was personal experiences of Guru Gobind Singh!92.5% content of the book.

    In one episode, Guru Gobind Singh is visiting a prostitute, and then gets beaten , people pull off his hair, his turban, his clothes and beat him with shoes…..do these “NICE Fellows” really want us to believe this is what Guru Gobind Singh was doing a mere one year before the Khalsa of 1699?

    It is commonly said, if one lies many times, one starts believing their own lies…this exactly what is going on here.

    I stand by Dr Karaminder Singh, The Malaysian Gurduara Council and the decision of the Panth in 1903, 1925, and revised declaration by SGPC in 1972 that this book is NOT Guru writing,but the writings of the hindu Vedic literature…and Asia Samachar’s stand to publicise this evil source that has been silently poisoning the minds of the unsuspecting.

    I have been asked to not write out the 404, sex stories, as it is read by non Sikhs and brings embarrassment to Sikhs, why not?

    It is alledgdly written by YOUR guru,why should you not be proud to share these stories?Why hide,to allow you to continue to poison the minds of the young?No way, the time has come to open up these stories so you can tell proudly,your guru was writing these lewd stories in 1698!

    I invite everyone to read this lewd book, and decide yourself, why the panth has never accepted this book.This book was never kept at any Gurduara, until 199, when the mischief makers , jealous of the Guru Granth sahibs position in the Sikh world decided to use this issue to divide the Sikhs and create the enemy from within to destroy the Sikhdom.

    Interesting, they have not uttered a word after creating the mischief, to explain factually, and their contravention of the Panthic descisons.

  3. Sggs is always the “bait”…but after the fish are caught..then the fun begins. Guru nanak ji sahib wrote..So kion manddah akhheyah jo jammeh rajaan….but we Sikhs have failed to follow this one shabd out of thousands to the fullest extent..we practise dowry, we practise female foeticide (Despite being condemned as anti-sikh, anti-gurmatt in our SRM..narree nmaar..kurree maar ), we dont allow them to do akhand paaths, we dont allow them to do kirtan at Darbar sahib, Akal takhat sahib, we dont allow them to enter the sancto sanctums of the Takhats……we deem them unholy simply due to a Natural function of biology that is vital for the continuation of the human race and despite this fact being stated clearly that its a Natural Function..zoru sir navhnnee aveh varo vaar…..and yet some would have us swallow the clearly pornographic 404 charitars in the name of Guru Gobind Singh ji as “sacred bani”.
    The simple statement in ardass..”dassahn Guruan dee bani” means Explicitly ONLY the SGGS..even though there is no bani by Guru Hargobind Ji, Guru har rai ji, Guru har Kishan Ji…..and Guru Gobind Singh ji inside the SGGS…..the Dassan Guruan Dee bani statement is made in respect of SGGS..as the GURU..the SOLE GURU. It follows naturally that since the SGGS is sole GURU..and it obviously has NO BANI by 4 Gurus…the DASSAHN GURUAN dee Bani stands for the JYOT of all 10 GURUS. Simply to insist otherwise is sheer stubbornness.
    The Booksellers have been leading us down the garden path for past hundred years..they prepared all the Gutkas, the Birrhs, the granths, the publications, the Amrit Kirtan Pothis, the Panj Granthis, the dass Granthis etc etc at their own whims and fancies. These “Booksellers” had the audacity to create and ADD an ANONYMOUS and FAKE Vaar at the END of the 40 Vaars of Bhai Gurdass Ji. This 41st Vaar which is so obvioulsy NOT by the Original Author Bhai Gurdass Ji who was the Mama ji of Guru Arjun ji and hwo scripted the AAD GRANTH under the direct supervision of the Fifth Guru sahib and whose vaars explain Gurbani and Gurmatt so accurately that they are called the Kunji of Gurbani. The 41st Vaar by a fictitious anonymous writer was ADDED to the books of Bhai Guurdass Ji….and Sikhs bought this LIE and FRAUD becasue we were sleeping and in coma. The 41st vaar has a few “nice sounding lines” ( just like those nice fellows hanging around everywhere)..and its INTERNAL PROOF is that its written in POST Guru Gobind Singh Period because the few nice sounding lines appear to be in consonance with our feelings..these few lines declare..Peevoh pahul khandedhaar..hoveh janam suhela..waho waho guru gobind Singh Aapeh Gur chela etc etc..BUT the Remaining NASTY lines are generally kept hidden..these show the Vitrolic mind of the real author..these nasty lines declare the FALSEHOODS that Guru Gobind Singh demolished mosques, banned the Azan, and also includes many many grossly FALSE HOODS about the Guru and the Muslim relations. Clearly the anonymous author is deeply interested in inflaming hatred between Sikhs and Muslims..and who could that be ?? When this fake vaar was eventually unmasked..did the Sikhs discard it ?/ No a few “nice fellows” decided that since its proven beyond doubt that its NOT by the real Bhai Gurdass..it has to be by….wah ji wah..Bhai Gurdass Doojah !!! A few even nicer fellows went ahead and declared that it has to be Bhai Gurdass SINGH..since the vaar describes Guru gobind Singh and His vaisakhi ceremony of 1699 !!! Has anyone another such example ?? has there been any “book” that has a few anonymously penned Plays added to the Complete Works of Shakespeare ?/ And on being found out has any British “nice fellow” come along and say..”Oh these plays could be by Shakespeare the SECOND ” ???
    Its an established fact that this FRAUD was deliberate..and so is the fraud of Books like Bhai bala janamsakhi..Gurbilas Books..etc etc..
    Sikhs ahve to come out of their self induced Coma and seek out the TRUTH..from FICTION..chaaf from the wheat kernels…past 300 years have been centuries of falsehood, adulteration of our history, our literature,..its very good that the Genius of Guru Arjun ji sahib in putting dandees, double dandees, accounting system implemented to keep the SGGS so PURE from any adulteration. The enemies within (masquarading as nice fellows) are also in the business of REMOVING these DANDEES, DOUBLE DANDEES etc..becasue these interfere in their nefarious designs to adulterate the SGGS and bend it to their will..the earlier false additions like Raagmala had to stay outside the SEALED SGGS…added on empty pages after the SEAL of Mundawnni !! But now these nice fellows are going after the dandees and double dandees…and will proceed further if we let them.

    Questions we should have asked..Who gave the booksellers the Right to CHANGE the manglacharan placings in SGGS birs ? Who gave the booksellers the right to pick and choose banis and outside wrtings into Kirtan Pothis like Amrit kirtan ? Who gave these fellows the right to add fake vaar to end of 40 Vaars book by Bhai Gurdass Ji ?? Who gave them rights to print and sell Gutkas with long and short banis, fake banis, kachee banis etc etc..and Fake tall tales of false holy men ??

    Questions we must ask TODAY..who gave the right to “nice fellows” to Print SGGS with CHANGES ?? Google the Net to find out what changes !!! IF in the 3rd Millineum, Age of the Internet..some “nice fellows” can audaciously change the SGGS…remove dandees and double dandees..what more in the dark ages 300 years ago..when Sikh heads fetched a reward of 80Rs ??

    Dont Sikhs feel outraged when they see a Gutka which carries the name of the Sponsor in several places all over the cover and inside pages..when the Real and Original Writer of the bani (Sukhmani Sahib) merely preferred the Words Mahalla 5 and not even his name Guru Arjun ji sahib ? I mean the writer doesnt even put his name down on the bani and the person who merely arranged for it to be printed in a Gutka form places HIS OWN NAME all over ?? …complete with a myriad of titles self proclaimed !!!I am amazed.
    I implore everyone to go read the original DG and then make a judgement for yourself..dont listen and be layee laggh only…Its ALL there in its glory and in ENGLISH too…courtesy of Baba Virsa Singh sadan who was paid to sponsor a million copies of this during the 300th Cenetenary of the Khalsa by the vested interests….as IF the SGGS has been over printed and saturated the world already !!!
    I am supportive of the actions of the Malaysian Gurdwaras Council and the Asia Samachar for this bold step. Its times like these when some stand up to be counted..others lurk in the shadows. The Sikh Community is too small to be further divided and no one..no matter how nice fellows they may be…should be allowed to rock the boat. Lets all be united under one – Akal Purakh-One Guru-One Gurbani SGGS. Errors and ommissions mine.

  4. Since new research suggest Guru Gobind Singh has written this book in 1698….why don’t we have Guru sex purab ….hello academy wale “nice guys…”will you do a katha on charitropakhyan-porno ?……so now we have a sex writing Guru Ccording to these” nice fellows!

    By the way amarjit singh has never shared his new evidence even after so many days?

    By the was as recently as 1972 The SGPC has declared these charitropakhyan-porno is hindu mythology ……so without these now the valid of the Granth is dubious .


    thank you for causing disunity among sikhs in Malaysia with such poison.

    Your silence speaks volumes. …but then with layee lag Sikhs. .what can expect ..symposium on the 404 sex stories by Guru Gobind Singh ?

  5. Let us look at another chariter…

    Erotica – Charitar 21, 22, 23 :

    How Anoop Kaur Seduced Guru Gobind Singh

    There was a rich lady Anoop Kaur, in Anandpur.

    She was attracted towards Guru Gobind Singh, so she called Magan Das , the Guru Sahib’s Servant and sent a message that if Guru Gobind Singh Ji wanted to learn Bhagauti Mantar (magic of goddess Bhaugati), then Guru Sahib should come and meet her at night. When Guru Gobind Singh reached there, she told him she wanted to have sexual intercourse with Guru Gobind Singh ji. Guru Sahib refused and then she said that you should then have to pass through my legs. Guru Gobind Singh ji replied : ‘that person will pass through your legs who is impotent and can’t perform sexually’:

    “Anoop kaur yo kahi bhog mau so piye kariye…’
    aaj humare saath mitar ruchi so rat kariye
    ho natar chhado tang tare abb hoye nikariye…
    Tang tare so jaayi kel ke jahe na aawe
    Baith nipunsak rahe rain sigar na bajawe…”
    (charitar 21, part 27-29)

    Then when Anoop Kaur could not convince Guru Gobind Singh ji, she started shouting chor-chor (thief), Guru Sahib started running but was chased and surrounded by other people. Then Guru Gobind Singh Ji slapped Anoop Kaur’s brother and took off his turban and told people that this person is the thief. Guru Gobind Singh left his shoe there. Then in the morning Guru Gobind Singh Ji summoned Anoop Kaur to his court, and told her that what you did was not right—, and at the end Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked her for forgiveness and fixed a pension of 20,000 rupees half yearly for Anoop Kaur:

    “chhima karo ab triya tume bahur naa kariye raandh
    Bees sahansa taka tise dayi chhimai baandh”
    (charitar 23,last part)

    He was rounded up from left, right and all the directions.
    Raja did try but he could not find any means (to escape).(4)
    People pulled his beard and took his turban off
    Calling him “thief, thief” they beat him with sticks.(5)
    With the beating of sticks, he fell flat and became unconscious.
    People without understanding the real issue, tied him up with a rope.(6)
    They were throwing punches and kicks when the Sikhs arrived, too.
    The woman shouted, “brother, brother,” but could not rescue him.(7)
    His face was hit with shoes and hands were tied tightly.
    He was put in the jail, and the woman came back to her bed.(8)


    Now the point to think is that if this happened with Guru Gobind Singh ji:
    •1. The story implies that Guru Gobind Singh ji used to tell Sikhs to read and follow Gurbani and himself used to learn Jantar Mantars (Black Magic).
    •2. Why would Guru Saab learn bhagauti mantar (goddess bhaugati’s black magic) and why would they ask the goddess for forgiveness?
    •3. A Great and fearless personality such Guru Gobind Singh, who challenged the tyrant rulers was afraid of this woman.
    that she would cry thief, that Guru Gobind Singh started running leaving behind his shoes and blanket?
    •4. Can a woman threaten Guru Gobind Singh, and say that I will have you arrested by saying that you are thief?
    •5. Why did Guru Gobind Singh fixed a pension of 20000?, a large amount even today, not to mention that time.
    •6. Guru Gobind Singh used to make people consume bhang (marijuana), afeem (opium), sharaab (alcohol)?

    Sikho jago, you have in Malaysia allowed like some one has said topoison the minds of the young, like the ISIS mentality.

    Would the “nice” fellows please explain is this Gurbani, or lessons of sex?

  6. I agree with Dr Karminder Singh ji and I quote… “On matters concerning Dasam Granth, we should allow the scholars, researchers to do their work and for our religious institutions of authority, the Akaal Takhat especially, to give us final direction. Till then, we should avoid taking any steps that will break the unity of our Sanggat, cause divisions, conflict and, God forbid, violence,”

    But since what was finalise long long ago “does not truly looks like as though it has indeed been finalised or implemented in full force” another Sarbat Khalsa should be called to discuss it indepth and in all possible angle to resolve it and put the final nail into it.

  7. Dr Karaminder Singh JI, are you not aware the final direction was given in 1903, then 1925, and later after partition ?

    How many more “final” directions should be sought?